Author Topic: VTOLs and ASF balance issues  (Read 9236 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Malecite

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 84
  • l33tp0intz: +0/-0
Re: VTOLs and ASF balance issues
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2010, 01:39:36 AM »
Seriously Heretic get a clue.

Your bitching constantly about the VTOLS godly role in the battlefield is COMPLETELY untrue. Unless, as has been numerously stated, your facing a team of completely incompetent losers a freaking VTOL is about as dangerous as an armless man in a slapping contest.

Yes it has a Tbolt missile, oh god no! It takes like 2 to 3 minutes to fly back to the base to reload, if it misses your left with a small bank of LRMS and some Narks. Its a one shot glass canon, which I personally have no patience for. Again, its relatively annoying unless the people your fighting against dont believe if flying planes or actually shooting you down. Im sure your going to respond with rants and raves about your heroic prowess, but the simple truth is that your way better of jumping in a sula with Tbolts if you want to get kills.  Assault mechs can pretty much shrug off everything except maybe the LT Gauss rifle or the single Tbolt, so I really dont see the imbalance. Light mechs can generally outrun, or avoid the missiles with the new Mask system so there's hardly an issue.

With a Sula prime I can destroy a VTOL in less than 5 seconds, lag included. You just throttle down to 60 percent and just hold down the fire button until your missiles lock, Bam dead. Kill the radar take a wide berth and come around for another pass if you miss. At the very least the VTOL pilot is going to have to fly frantically around, totally negating any kind of airsupport role.

Of all the things I expected people to get upset about, the VTOL was never one. The Aeros are WAY more of an issue, or how about the bloody Shiva that has 4 firebombs? It ANNIHILATES assault mechs in one pass, dont see a VTOL coming even close to that. So... maybe get real or jump in a plane.

Offline (TLL) Heretic

  • Living Legend
  • *******
  • Posts: 2424
  • l33tp0intz: +138/-0
Re: VTOLs and ASF balance issues
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2010, 01:59:12 AM »
Again supporting my point, thank you..if you want to down ASF or VTOLs, grab an ASF.

Maybe you want to look up the definition of combined arms?

And this is not just about VTOLs rather it's about the effective GROUND counters to ASF and VTOLs and the price of such vehicles in this beta, so read some more and play in different roles and experience the difference is all I can say to that point.

On an aside the helicopter (or VTOL if you prefer) in BTU is a sub-standard recon unit for a 'mech lance, not some uber-difficult to hit super unit of "'leet skillz", usually most commanders would prefer a locust running scout to a helo (why? 'cause a locust would last longer).  Not so in this game.

How many LRMs would a Locust survive? how many the VTOL?  We have a balance problem here, fortunately most ASF are easier to hit (when they start on a bombing run) so ASF are not the problem (I'm running maybe 3 to 1 on ASF to VTOL kills while working as an AA tanker), but the VTOLs are so cheap and , well, cheap they make things pretty silly from the start of a match till the end, as other poster have stated.

Run the scenario from the other point of view and tell me there's not a problem with the balance.


Pecuniam non olet
Quid enim saluis infamia nummis

"Make this game my way, because I HAVE A DISORDER!" - VictorMorson
".....show us on the doll where MWLL touched you bad." - KingLeer

Offline Cujo

  • Evil Polygon Wizard
  • MWLL Developer
  • Star Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 1766
  • l33tp0intz: +55/-0
    • Deviant Art Gallery
Re: VTOLs and ASF balance issues
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2010, 02:19:24 AM »
How many LRMs would a Locust survive? how many the VTOL?
the Locust would probably survive a few more, the VTOL really don't have much armor.  It currently has a bit of a lag/framerate shield, but that's not a balance issue, and further optimizations will help.  Also, partisan prime makes short work of ASF, very short work.  And with bullet drop, you can pretty much hit a VTOL or ASF from wherever you can see them visibly, my only issue was framerate.

Offline =KH=Dimachaerus

  • Alphatester
  • Lance Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 428
  • l33tp0intz: +31/-0
  • TROLL-LOLL-LOLL-LOL-LOL-LOL-LOLLLLLLL
Re: VTOLs and ASF balance issues
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2010, 02:48:55 AM »
Again supporting my point, thank you..if you want to down ASF or VTOLs, grab an ASF.

Maybe you want to look up the definition of combined arms?

And this is not just about VTOLs rather it's about the effective GROUND counters to ASF and VTOLs and the price of such vehicles in this beta, so read some more and play in different roles and experience the difference is all I can say to that point.

On an aside the helicopter (or VTOL if you prefer) in BTU is a sub-standard recon unit for a 'mech lance, not some uber-difficult to hit super unit of "'leet skillz", usually most commanders would prefer a locust running scout to a helo (why? 'cause a locust would last longer).  Not so in this game.

How many LRMs would a Locust survive? how many the VTOL?  We have a balance problem here, fortunately most ASF are easier to hit (when they start on a bombing run) so ASF are not the problem (I'm running maybe 3 to 1 on ASF to VTOL kills while working as an AA tanker), but the VTOLs are so cheap and , well, cheap they make things pretty silly from the start of a match till the end, as other poster have stated.

Run the scenario from the other point of view and tell me there's not a problem with the balance.

Lets put it this way, I spent an entire round in a partisan... and guess what?

I blew the shit out of Vtols, even when they were dodging madly, even at 1k+. AC5 ammo coesnt cost crap, roll the tank out, hit a few things for a bit, roll back to base, buy six tons of ammo... from that point on, you can go radar off and just swat any spec in the sky. My buddy did this as well one round and with very little effort was able to keep the skies clear. Lead your shots, and hose the air unit and POOF it'll die. Again, I also remind you to look at the lovely new harasser variant, it's evil as all hell, one hit will either cripple or severely damage a vtol/aero and it has ECM, so you're mostly free from the threat of retaliation.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I am an asshole, I know this.
It is intentional, though usually not too horribly personal.

Unless you are a moron.

Offline Arghy

  • Lance Captain
  • ***
  • Posts: 652
  • l33tp0intz: +21/-4
Re: VTOLs and ASF balance issues
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2010, 03:03:27 AM »
Hey counter point, i've sunk ERPPC's and gauss rounds into VTOL's and still had them get away, i've recently spent 1200 rounds of RCAC2 ammo trying to shoot down an aero with no success because he had lower ping then me. I would just like to point out an atlas in marshes took a LRM20 salvo and was pretty much covered in yellow--this was fresh armor and no one was shooting at him, i was in a demolisher prime trying to get a bead when this happened. So 100ton mech with the heaviest armor in the game, 2 LRM20 rounds shred its armor, 20 ton heli shrugs off 2 LRM20 salvos and fights on.

I dont know where you guys are getting the insta kills with guass guns because i've only seen 1 shot kills with aeros and that was a weakened aero, i've seen fresh aeros survive a gauss hit. I've also had a VTOL in extremity hover directly over me and rain LRM's down while i could do nothing because he was so high up no mech could pivot to retaliate--whats the answer to the lone VTOL? hope someone bought a parti which sucks at everything but killing air targets that arent there? or maybe someone got a sulla! oh wait no, no one wanted to fly one i guess we ignore him?

If VTOL's had paper armor like the aeros then they wouldent be a problem because as soon as someone spots them they'd be screwed and forced to retreat--i honestly dont know why their ingame in the first place, sure its nice but kinda unnecessary unless their not done to BT cannon because their supposed to be flying coffins not flying tanks.

Offline Malecite

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 84
  • l33tp0intz: +0/-0
Re: VTOLs and ASF balance issues
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2010, 03:43:58 AM »
Uh I have to say I have never seen an assault mech go to yellow armor from a single LRM salvo, and even if this were the case the worst a VTOL can do is hit you with 2 x 10 LRMs. I have flown VTOLS for hours and hours before and find the amount of damage you do with the LRMS pales in comparison to a sula. So dont try to tell me your atlas is getting one shotted by a VTOL as its a simple falsehood. I've emptied entire LRM ammo stores into assault mechs and barely brought them down to yellow.

I HAVE however seen VTOLS get instantly destroyed by a heavy gauss rifle or 2 ERPPC blasts, and again ill reiterate: if someones in a VTOL grab a jet and shoot him down. If your complaining that your unable to defeat them with your land based tank then why not try something thats garaunteed to work? Obviously the BETA has problems and lag is one of them, on low latency servers VTOLS GET fappING MURDERED by the partisans. Yes their cheap, becuase their damage output is pathetic. Once the mechlab becomes available and you can customize their loadouts I can see things becoming a problem, but I seriously cant see why you think their such an unbalanced unit. Basically all they do is hover around and shoot small amounts of missiles at people, which generally is great because I would rather my enemies choose a shitty helicopter than a massive assault mech.

I think your frustrated perhaps that you cant destroy them due to them hovering way the hell up in the air, but as has already been stated by the Devs THATS HOW THEY SURVIVE. Hence, for the last time, if your truly bothered by someone in a VTOL grab a jet, get some skills, and learn to destroy them in a single pass. ITS NOT THAT GODDAMN HARD.

Offline Arghy

  • Lance Captain
  • ***
  • Posts: 652
  • l33tp0intz: +21/-4
Re: VTOLs and ASF balance issues
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2010, 05:04:59 AM »
Well me and 5 others can attest to witnessing a fresh atlas go from all green to all yellow from a single LRM20 parti hosing him. We are complaining about a heli that hovers 1000m above you and has the armor of a tank not the fact that its hovering 1000m above you.

Offline Cujo

  • Evil Polygon Wizard
  • MWLL Developer
  • Star Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 1766
  • l33tp0intz: +55/-0
    • Deviant Art Gallery
Re: VTOLs and ASF balance issues
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2010, 05:20:40 AM »
Well me and 5 others can attest to witnessing a fresh atlas go from all green to all yellow from a single LRM20 parti hosing him. We are complaining about a heli that hovers 1000m above you and has the armor of a hovercraft not the fact that its hovering 1000m above you.
fixed.

Offline Temphage

  • Lance Sergeant
  • **
  • Posts: 390
  • l33tp0intz: +5/-4
Re: VTOLs and ASF balance issues
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2010, 06:46:44 AM »
Seriously Heretic get a clue.

Your bitching constantly about the VTOLS godly role in the battlefield is COMPLETELY untrue.

I personally don't think they have an overly 'godly role' - a team without any air assets could still win just as easily - I just think they bring absolutely nothing fun to the game. They're pretty much the sniper class of the game. They interact with other players on only the most basic of levels, they do not bring a role that requires filling, and they only serve to piss off players while making one lone-wolf Top Gun wannabee giddy because he can read a magazine while playing.  hen you're forced into a fight with something you have literally zero means of countering, it makes the game not fun. It's the same reason everyone hated aircraft in BF2 - regular infantry had *ZERO* defense against a pilot who could just fly circles around the map dropping bombs, and end the game with 82 kills.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 06:53:19 AM by Temphage »

Offline Malecite

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 84
  • l33tp0intz: +0/-0
Re: VTOLs and ASF balance issues
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2010, 07:07:49 AM »
Exactly PILOTS, not VTOL slobs which in my opinion are the air version of the missile campers seeing how they fufill the exact same roll. But at least the missile campers have Arrow IV's which are fapping devastating, as opposed to the VTOLS which are a mild annoyance at best. Given the choice of facing a team of VTOL whores or missile campers I would choose the VTOLS any day of the week, as one skilled pilot could have a hay day compleyely devastating the opposition.


Offline Evgen

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 170
  • l33tp0intz: +8/-0
Re: VTOLs and ASF balance issues
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2010, 11:17:34 AM »
The latest 0.1.0 patch balanced Aeros quite good.

1). 16 slots servers is completely lag free for me while on 20 slots there is.
2) VTOL has armor which is far from what light mech has. Yes VTOL is much tougher then other aeros but still can be easily destroyed with even machine guns on Raven.
3)There are plenty ground Anti-Air armor units which can camp with passive radar. In addition any Mechs that have JJ, ELRM ( Raven with ELRM15 1500 range!!!) Gausse can be a serious threat for Aeros if played well.

I agree that Partisan cost should allow to buy additional ammo. Also any Mech with machine gun should be able to buy more ammo.

 

 
 



Offline Serafina

  • Recruit
  • *
  • Posts: 141
  • l33tp0intz: +1/-0
Re: VTOLs and ASF balance issues
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2010, 11:47:43 AM »
VTOLs are fine.

Except that they are too hard to hit if they notice you - a good areo player can dodge most of the incoming fire if he notices it.
The dodging capability of VTOLs is even greater than that of BA's, and they have a greater health bar.

Solution:
Either give us an AA-weapon that can actually hit them with good accuracy (e.g. by having proximity fuses) and/or increase the pricetag of VTOLs (between 20 and 30K would be a nice start).
Increasing the speed of the bullets of AC/2s and AC/5s would also be helpfull, that would reduce the dodging capability.


Yes, if the VTOL does not know that you are there AND it is hovering in one place, you can kill it quickly (as in, within 10 seconds).
But if he notices you, he can and will dodge most of your fire.
Since player-made course changes are unpredictable, he can just fly into whatever direction he likes once he gets hit by a couple of bullets.

There is not much you can do about the possibilty to disengage from ground-based AA, but that is all the more reason to make it more deadly.
I am a servant of the immortal god-emperor of mankind. In His glorious name, I shall bring his Justice. In His glorious name, I shall bring his faith. And in His glorious name, I shall destroy His enemies.
Lady Serafina Morantor, Cadian Inquisitor

Offline (TLL) Heretic

  • Living Legend
  • *******
  • Posts: 2424
  • l33tp0intz: +138/-0
Re: VTOLs and ASF balance issues
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2010, 12:21:08 PM »
VTOLs are fine.

Except that they are too hard to hit if they notice you - a good areo player can dodge most of the incoming fire if he notices it.
The dodging capability of VTOLs is even greater than that of BA's, and they have a greater health bar.

Solution:
Either give us an AA-weapon that can actually hit them with good accuracy (e.g. by having proximity fuses) and/or increase the pricetag of VTOLs (between 20 and 30K would be a nice start).
Increasing the speed of the bullets of AC/2s and AC/5s would also be helpfull, that would reduce the dodging capability.


Yes, if the VTOL does not know that you are there AND it is hovering in one place, you can kill it quickly (as in, within 10 seconds).
But if he notices you, he can and will dodge most of your fire.
Since player-made course changes are unpredictable, he can just fly into whatever direction he likes once he gets hit by a couple of bullets.

There is not much you can do about the possibilty to disengage from ground-based AA, but that is all the more reason to make it more deadly.

QFT.

This is what I'm getting at, right now the AA tanker is a sub-par role, jumping in a Sulla to kill another air unit is not combined arms play, but rather the creation of a seperate air war and ground war in one game.


Pecuniam non olet
Quid enim saluis infamia nummis

"Make this game my way, because I HAVE A DISORDER!" - VictorMorson
".....show us on the doll where MWLL touched you bad." - KingLeer

Offline =KH=Dimachaerus

  • Alphatester
  • Lance Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 428
  • l33tp0intz: +31/-0
  • TROLL-LOLL-LOLL-LOL-LOL-LOL-LOLLLLLLL
Re: VTOLs and ASF balance issues
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2010, 01:02:21 PM »
Seriously Heretic get a clue.

Your bitching constantly about the VTOLS godly role in the battlefield is COMPLETELY untrue.

I personally don't think they have an overly 'godly role' - a team without any air assets could still win just as easily - I just think they bring absolutely nothing fun to the game. They're pretty much the sniper class of the game. They interact with other players on only the most basic of levels, they do not bring a role that requires filling, and they only serve to piss off players while making one lone-wolf Top Gun wannabee giddy because he can read a magazine while playing.  hen you're forced into a fight with something you have literally zero means of countering, it makes the game not fun. It's the same reason everyone hated aircraft in BF2 - regular infantry had *ZERO* defense against a pilot who could just fly circles around the map dropping bombs, and end the game with 82 kills.

So, becaue I choose to use a better tool for the job (I.e. I get a sulla with bombs to hammer your rear lines, blowing the hill-humping jump snipers and missile spammers to hell with a venegeance) I must be some kind of "lone-wolf Top Gun wannabee" (sic)?

Sounds like someone wasn't prepared to have to actually look UP while trying to get a bead on something with an LRM boat and got a pair of F-bombs up the tailpipe. Now we get to listen to his hatred of anything that isn't land-based. There are very effective counters in this, this is not BF2, get it? THIS IS NOT BF2.

I'll list the effective GROUND counters for you:

1. Mech at a distance with long range weaponry (hollanders and shadowcats work wonders at this) distance negates the lack of being able to look up far enough.
2. Mechs with Jumpjets.
3. Hills that will put you closer to the air unit.
3. AA tanks (partisan, all but the missile boat, and any huit)
4.  Harasser with Lt-gauss
5. Driving the nose of your tank onto an incline to raise the turret angle (oro's do this VERY well)

I don't need to go into what air assets do against other air assets, after all, they're all just "lone-wolf Top Gun wannabee" material, right?

PS: These are all from personal experience, both as a tank/mech/BA, and as an aero/vtol. Giving and receiving.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I am an asshole, I know this.
It is intentional, though usually not too horribly personal.

Unless you are a moron.

Offline Stahlseele

  • Living Legend
  • *******
  • Posts: 4585
  • l33tp0intz: +86/-6
  • 2nd Level TechSupport Agent(BOFH)
Re: VTOLs and ASF balance issues
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2010, 01:15:44 PM »
Proposed fix: limit fleight height to 800m? O.o
*runs for cover*
'any kind of discussion of randomness ALWAYS WILL EQUATE to being able to critically hit a mech's reactor by firing a micro beam laser while facing 80 degrees to the side, shooting the ground, which would cause a random explosion which would randomly crit his entire team's reactors which would randomly cause the server itself to explode which would randomly generate a strange quark which would randomly hit the earth and randomly randomness randomfapp the shit fapp random!'
------------------------------
CPU: Intel Xeon i7 4820k
Memory: GSkill 2x8Gb DDR3 1333Mhz
Video: Inno 3D iChill GeForce GTX 780Ti Black Accelero Hybrid
H/SDD:Samsung Series 830 256GB/512GB, 1x WD Caviar Black 1TB, 1x WD Caviar Green 3TB
Monitor: 2x24" Widescreen 16:9 1920x1080 native resolution
Win7Ultimate64