Author Topic: Comstar's Invisible Truth  (Read 10373 times)

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Offline Stahlseele

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Re: Comstar's Invisible Truth
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2008, 04:47:28 PM »
there's a compact KF-drive?
why?
those ships are big enough to fit the regular one, solar sail, weapons, other reactors AND Batteries for energy . .
on the same note: there's XL-Reactors for mechs, are those used in any other vehicle in battletech?
Tanks? Dropships? Fighters?
'any kind of discussion of randomness ALWAYS WILL EQUATE to being able to critically hit a mech's reactor by firing a micro beam laser while facing 80 degrees to the side, shooting the ground, which would cause a random explosion which would randomly crit his entire team's reactors which would randomly cause the server itself to explode which would randomly generate a strange quark which would randomly hit the earth and randomly randomness randomfapp the shit fapp random!'
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Offline Tharnow

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Re: Comstar's Invisible Truth
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2008, 05:24:22 PM »
AFAIK, the compact version of the K-F drive has other benefits than being lighter/smaller:
It is more resilient.
Not only is the drive itself tougher, the solar sails are replaced by internal reactors (I'm not sure bout that, but it makes sense: A internal reactor is lighter than a huge solar sail, but propably way more expensive).

This removes the main vulnerability of JumpShips: They can be crippled with ease, you just need to punch a few holes into a giant, thin foil. This virtually removes the possibility to risk a JumpShip in a warzone, it also makes blocking access to a system easy 8you can only jump from solar Lagrange points, and a JumpShip can neither flee nor fight back once it arrives in a system, lacking external drives).

It is also the main reason for having a WarShip: While blocking a star system is expensive (you need ~5 ships), it is possible.
You do not want to risk using a JumpShip for blockade running - it is a sitting duck, made out of tinfoil.
A WarShip, however, can not only fight back, but can actually take damage without being rendered immobile.

AFAIK, a compact K-F drive is also more effective (civilian ships are stated to have a maximum mass of 500K tons, while WarShips are stated to have a upper limit of 2.5M tons)

Offline Stahlseele

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Re: Comstar's Invisible Truth
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2008, 05:58:39 PM »
warships actually come with dropship style thurst engines too, so they can go into orbit above any body in the system, not just the sun . .
and you can jump on pirate points too, not only north and south of big glowy there O.o
and all jumpships also have regular reactors, but usually they only use them to power the whole ship and not to reload the KF-Drive . . though it is possible and often used in systems with only little to no radiation from a star to use the sails . . and you can even hot-load the KF-Drive, if you're willing to risk damaging it . . meaning you can make a ship jump again in about 24 hours . . much faster than with the sails . .
ok, i will concede the point about smaller and more hardier in military ships, but everything else? bullshit, even for battletechs standards *g*
and to effectively block jump-points, you would only have to steer some mass into those points . . meteorites or something like that . .
guess how much an incoming jumpship will like suddenly materializing halfway through another thing out there?
'any kind of discussion of randomness ALWAYS WILL EQUATE to being able to critically hit a mech's reactor by firing a micro beam laser while facing 80 degrees to the side, shooting the ground, which would cause a random explosion which would randomly crit his entire team's reactors which would randomly cause the server itself to explode which would randomly generate a strange quark which would randomly hit the earth and randomly randomness randomfapp the shit fapp random!'
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Offline Tharnow

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Re: Comstar's Invisible Truth
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2008, 06:48:57 PM »
Of course every ship has a reactor.
But WarShips AFAIK are able to load their K-F drive with their reactors without damaging it.

Hm,i did not know about pirate jumppoints - but the regular "north/southpole" limitation is b..s.. anyway, because there are more than 2 lagrange points for any given star.
But blocking them by using asteroids or something similar wont work - because they wont stay in place. JumpShips have maneuver drives for a reason.

Offline Stahlseele

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Re: Comstar's Invisible Truth
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2008, 06:53:57 PM »
yeah, easiest is to use solar powered vehicles that can maintain the position . .
and all jumpers can use the reactors to reload their drives . .
energy is energy, as long as it does come in the propper form, it does not matter if it's a natural suns radiation that gets converted into electricity by solar cells or if it is an artificial suns heat or whatever being converted to electricity . . as long as there's 230V my computers power supply does not bitch about the electricity being solar, oil, coal, wind, water or anything else . .
just like you can today load batteris, as long as you do not load them too quickly, they can be loaded just fine . .
'any kind of discussion of randomness ALWAYS WILL EQUATE to being able to critically hit a mech's reactor by firing a micro beam laser while facing 80 degrees to the side, shooting the ground, which would cause a random explosion which would randomly crit his entire team's reactors which would randomly cause the server itself to explode which would randomly generate a strange quark which would randomly hit the earth and randomly randomness randomfapp the shit fapp random!'
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Offline Tharnow

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Re: Comstar's Invisible Truth
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2008, 08:56:24 PM »
Tell that to the Battletech writers - THEY stated that using an on-board reactor to power a K-F drive is bad.

It does make sense, at least a little bit: If you have to reroute power, and if you have no good mean to to transform the current, you WILL cause damage.
Now, lets say  you need huge amounts of energy at a low current, normally provided by a huge solar sail (which should produce low currents) to power a K-F drive. A normal on-board reactor is not meant to power it, so you do not have regular connections to your
K-F drive. You can somehow reroute the power - but you can not keep the current steady, thus causing damage.
After all, you can power your computer with 220 V, too. It will work, just not as good as with 230 V. And if the current is too different, you will cause damage.

Now, WarShips have huge amounts of surplus power at their onboard reactors, and can use that to power their K-F drive. They also have lots and lots of good transformators, able to deliver the current you need.

Offline Stahlseele

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Re: Comstar's Invisible Truth
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2008, 09:12:16 PM »
the only problem ever mentioned was HOT-Loading the KF-Drive . . meaning pumping in more power than they would get from the solar sail in the same time.
If it were done at the same speed as with the sail under the sun in the solar system of earth, then it would work just as good . . and as far as i remember, it was at least in some novels standard procedure under certain circumstances . . such as asteroid-showers that could damage the sail, or the sun being too weak to give the needed power in the needed ammount of time . . and under dire circumstances, like having to flee from an incoming fleettossing the sail, hotloading and hoping that the ship would make it was the only way to escape in at least 1 case
'any kind of discussion of randomness ALWAYS WILL EQUATE to being able to critically hit a mech's reactor by firing a micro beam laser while facing 80 degrees to the side, shooting the ground, which would cause a random explosion which would randomly crit his entire team's reactors which would randomly cause the server itself to explode which would randomly generate a strange quark which would randomly hit the earth and randomly randomness randomfapp the shit fapp random!'
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Offline FAIEr

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Re: Comstar's Invisible Truth
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2008, 09:45:44 PM »
sorry, just to comment on the list of CS's fleet. not a cat in hell's chance of them having that many, sorry. no. thats more than 2 if not 3 S. states put together, especially when you think about the time before WoB broke away, adding like 1/2 again onto that. just....no

Offline Nebfer

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Re: Comstar's Invisible Truth
« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2008, 12:17:38 AM »
A KF-Drive can be charged with a Fusion reactor but the standard charge time is no diffrent than using the sail.

Though you can "fast" charge the core but you run into the risk of damaging the core the faster you recharge it. With a recharge station you can safely recharge a KF drive in only 150 hours vs the 175 hours standard (175 hours =7.3 days or 50 jumps per year, 1,500x C (C= speed of light)) 150 hours is 6.25 days or 58 jumps per year (1,740x C).

It's also not commonly done with a Jumpship as it takes a lot of fuel to charge it (10 days worth of fuel).

A list of canon jumpships what they can carry in dropships and small craft as well as their range before they need to be refueled.
The range is based on the listed fuel capacity and it's station keeping drive endurance, the numbers assume a solar sail recharge and not by the reactor.

Explorer Class Jumpship
50kt 1x SC
operational range 300 LY before refueling

Scout Class
90kt 1x DS, 1x SC
operational range 180 LY before refueling

Quetzalcoatl-Scout Class
90kt 12x fighters
operational range 210LY before refueling

Hunter Class (Clan) supposedly has a HPG, has LF battery variant
95kt 1x DS
operational range 1,680 LY before refueling

Merchant Class -Work horse
120kt 2x DS, 2x SC
operational range 150 LY before refueling

Invader Class -most commen
152kt 3x DS, 2x SC
operational range 90 LY before refueling

Magellan Class-comstar mainstay, supposedly has a HPG
175kt 1x DS, 1x SC
operational range 2,490 LY before refueling

Chimeisho Class (new build Combine ship) LF battery equipped
245Kt 2x DS, 4x SC
operational range 600 LY before refueling

Comitatus Class (clan)
250Kt 1x DS, 20 Fighters, 5x SC
operational range 480 LY before refueling

Tramp Class -LF variant available (LF variant is a Clan ship)
250Kt 3x DS, 2x SC
operational range 510 LY before refueling

Star Lord Class
274Kt 5x DS, 4x SC
operational range 90 LY before refueling

Odyssey Class (Clan) -LF equipped
345Kt 4x DS, 1x SC, 10x BA
operational range 1,020 LY before refueling

Monolith Class -rare
430Kt 9x DS, 6x SC
operational range 60 LY before refueling



Offline Stahlseele

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Re: Comstar's Invisible Truth
« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2008, 12:26:29 AM »
considering a jump is at most 30 light years as far as i remember, those ranges seem all kinds of wrong to me . .
'any kind of discussion of randomness ALWAYS WILL EQUATE to being able to critically hit a mech's reactor by firing a micro beam laser while facing 80 degrees to the side, shooting the ground, which would cause a random explosion which would randomly crit his entire team's reactors which would randomly cause the server itself to explode which would randomly generate a strange quark which would randomly hit the earth and randomly randomness randomfapp the shit fapp random!'
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Offline Hellfire

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Re: Comstar's Invisible Truth
« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2008, 02:43:21 AM »
So thats the official line, but I'd call anything touting Naval class weapons and armour as a Warship, and the Comitatus with its lack of Naval weapons as a System Patrol Boat/Light Carrier.  Similarily I'd call any Dropship with Naval Weapons and armour a Warship regardless of the fact it doesnt have a K-F Drive (Imagine the Chinese river-only warships which were like floating castles).
Sorry about the capital armor brainfart.

Dropships can't mount capital armor.

AFAIK, the compact version of the K-F drive has other benefits than being lighter/smaller:
It is more resilient.
Not only is the drive itself tougher, the solar sails are replaced by internal reactors (I'm not sure bout that, but it makes sense: A internal reactor is lighter than a huge solar sail, but propably way more expensive).
Warships still mount sails. A McKenna has sails 1,560 meters in diameter.
Code: [Select]
                  AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
                                  VALIDATED

Class/Model/Name:  McKenna (Battleship)
Tech:              Clan / 2652
Vessel Type:       WarShip
Rules:             Level 2, Standard design
Rules Set:         AeroTech2

Mass:              1,930,000 tons
Hull:              Cortex UltraBond
K-F Drive System:  KF King I
Length:            1,405 meters
Sail Diameter:     1,560 meters
Power Plant:       Goliath LV9 Standard
Safe Thrust:       3
Maximum Thrust:    5
Armor Type:        Ulston C5-A Ferro-carbide
Armament:         
    8 Zeus-40 Series NAC/40
   12 Thunderbolt-55 NL55
    6 Maelstrom AR10 Launcher
   48 Kreuss XX Heavy NPPC
Manufacturer:   Blue Nose Clipperships
  Location:     MArs
Communications System:  Mercury TY60
Targeting & Tracking System:  Communal V-1a
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name:  McKenna (Battleship)
Mass:              1,930,000 tons

Equipment:                                                            Mass 
Power Plant, Drive & Control:                                      347,400.00
Thrust:  Safe Thrust: 3
      Maximum Thrust: 5
Kearny-Fuchida Hyperdrive:  Compact (Integrity = 37)               873,325.00
Lithium Fusion Battery                                              19,300.00
Jump Sail: (Integrity = 7)                                             126.00
Structural Integrity: 95                                           183,350.00
Total Heat Sinks:    6,325 Double                                    5,447.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps:                                                   1,632.00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters:              4,825.00
Fire Control Computers:                                                   .00
Food & Water:  (180 days supply)                                       682.50
Armor Type:  Ferro-carbide  (1,343 total armor pts)                  1,425.50
                           Capital Scale Armor Pts
   Location:                            L / R
   Fore:                                200
   Fore-Left/Right:                  250/250
   Aft-Left/Right:                   250/250
   Aft:                                 143

Cargo:
   Bay 1:  Fighters (25) with 4 doors                                3,750.00
   Bay 2:  Fighters (25) with 4 doors                                3,750.00
   Bay 3:  Cargo (1) with 2 doors                                  253,763.00
           Small Craft (16)                                          3,200.00

DropShip Capacity:  6 Docking Hardpoints                             6,000.00
Grav Decks #1 - 2:  (45-meter diameter)                                100.00
Grav Deck #3:  (75-meter diameter)                                      50.00
Life Boats:  30 (7 tons each)                                          210.00
Escape Pods:  30 (7 tons each)                                         210.00

Crew and Passengers:
     97 Officers (96 minimum)                                          970.00
    407 Crew (334 minimum)                                           2,849.00
     74 Gunners (74 minimum)                                           518.00
    180 Bay Personnel                                                     .00
Weapons and Equipment      Loc        SRV    MRV    LRV    ERV  Heat    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 NAC/40(41 rounds)        Nose        40     40     --     --  135  4,552.00
1 NAC/40(41 rounds)        Nose        40     40     --     --  135  4,552.00
2 NL55                     Nose        11     11     11     11  170  2,200.00
1 NAC/40(41 rounds)        FL/R        40     40     --     --  270  9,104.00
1 NAC/40(42 rounds)        FL/R        40     40     --     --  270  9,106.00
1 NAC/40(42 rounds)        FL/R        40     40     --     --  270  9,106.00
3 NL55                     FL/R        17     17     17     17  510  6,600.00
1 AR10 (4 KW, 4 WS, 5 B)   FL/R         *      *      *      *   40  1,520.00
1 AR10 (3 KW, 3 WS, 5 B)   FL/R         *      *      *      *   40  1,340.00
4 Heavy NPPC               L/RBS       60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               L/RBS       60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               L/RBS       60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               AL/R        60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               AL/R        60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
4 Heavy NPPC               AL/R        60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
4 NL55                     Aft         22     22     22     22  340  4,400.00
1 AR10 (3 KW, 3 WS, 5 B)   Aft          *      *      *      *   20    670.00
1 AR10 (3 KW, 3 WS, 5 B)   Aft          *      *      *      *   20    670.00
1 Lot Spare Parts (1.00%)                                           19,300.00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                                           Heat: 13,020   1,930,000.00
Tons Left:                                                                .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        21,180,829,800 C-Bills
Battle Value:      198,667
Cost per BV:       106,614.74
Weapon Value:      107,207 (Ratio = .54)
Damage Factors:    SRV = 10,064;  MRV = 10,064;  LRV = 7,929;  ERV = 2,277
Maintenance:       Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 1,027,301
                   (206,199 Structure, 472,632 Life Support, 348,470 Weapons)
                   Support Points (SP) = 1,279,575  (125% of MPV)
BattleForce2:      Not applicable

sorry, just to comment on the list of CS's fleet. not a cat in hell's chance of them having that many, sorry. no. thats more than 2 if not 3 S. states put together, especially when you think about the time before WoB broke away, adding like 1/2 again onto that. just....no
The Free Worlds League Navy could take them.

Name             Type
Janos Marik   DD Impavido-class
Impavido   DD Impavido-class
Phrygia   DD Impavido-class
Raven   DD Essex-class
Schrack   DD Essex-class
Liberty   CR Vincent Mk.39-class
Tirana   CR Zechetinu-class
Karelia   CR Zechetinu-class
Attica   CR Zechetinu-class
Sparta   CR Zechetinu-class
Scorpion   CR Zechetinu II-class
Araneida   CR Zechetinu II-class
Acari   CR Zechetinu II-class
Ioxdida   CR Zechetinu II-class
Opilione   CR Zechetinu II-class
Kustarachnae   CR Zechetinu II-class
Haptopoda   CR Zechetinu II-class
Lancelot   FF Eagle-class
Gawain   FF Eagle-class
Tristram   FF Eagle-class
Bedevere   FF Eagle-class
Galahad   FF Eagle-class
Mordred   FF Eagle-class
Bors   FF Eagle-class
Kay   FF Eagle-class
Percival   FF Eagle-class
Leodegrance   FF Eagle-class
Menelaus   CA Agamemnon-class
Aeneas   CA Agamemnon-class
Hippolyta   CA Agamemnon-class
Troy   CA Agamemnon-class
Olympic   CA Aegis-class
Nueva Badajoz (ex-Impetuous)   CA Aegis-class
Xanthos   BC Black Lion-class
Santorini   CVA Thera-class
Corinth   CVA Thera-class
Sardis   CVA Thera-class
Delphi   CVA Thera-class
Delos   CVA Thera-class
Thessaly   CVA Thera-class

The Delos and Thessaly would have been commissioned by 3068 and 3070 respectively.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 02:57:24 AM by Hellfire »

Offline (TLL) Heretic

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Re: Comstar's Invisible Truth
« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2008, 03:22:18 AM »
Ahh the Thera!(perhaps my favourite)  Love that warship, pure carrier death from above.

Big fan of the FWL, hate what wizkids did to them.


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Offline FAIEr

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Re: Comstar's Invisible Truth
« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2008, 03:48:47 AM »
seriously, where on earth would any IS state get dozens of warships, having been rediscovered less than a decade ago (i know FWL is supposed to be an industrial giant, but come on!). so where in the world would they get that many warships? no single state would be able to build so man in such short time

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Re: Comstar's Invisible Truth
« Reply #43 on: December 14, 2008, 04:52:37 AM »
Or maintain them, thats my problem with the CS Fleet, quite willing to be;oeve they were hidden and mothballed, can't seriously expect Terra+HPG Business = massive fleet.  I'm also sure that the fleet would have been stolen/destroyed by various House fleets during the 1st big one, had the House's known about it.  They stripped the bones off the old Terran Hegemony (the Chaos March, then a bastion of lostech and advanced worlds) and what was left of star league, why would they leave Terra scrosanct???


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Offline Hellfire

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Re: Comstar's Invisible Truth
« Reply #44 on: December 14, 2008, 09:03:44 AM »
Comstar has more than enough infrastructure to maintain their fleet. First of all they have the Titan yards that they use to build and maintain warships. They also have 5 yard ships to maintain their existing fleet and recover/salvage lost warships. Why wouldn't they be able to maintain such a small fleet, and yes it is small.  They hold Terra.

Quote from: {SLDF} Heretic
I'm also sure that the fleet would have been stolen/destroyed by various House fleets during the 1st big one, had the House's known about it.  They stripped the bones off the old Terran Hegemony (the Chaos March, then a bastion of lostech and advanced worlds) and what was left of star league, why would they leave Terra scrosanct???
Setting up their own HPG infrastructure would have been to much effort during war time.  The Houses where busy throwing their fleets of hundreds of warships against each other in apocalyptic battles. They had better things to do than start a scramble for Terra.

Quote from: FAIEr
so where in the world would they get that many warships?
Tamarind Yards, Tamarind
Loyalty Shipyards, Loyalty
ImStar Shipyards, Atreus
Top Secret Illium Shipyards, Ionus
6 of them where salvaged with WoBs help.
IIRC only the Ionus shipyard is new.

Quote
no single state would be able to build so man in such short time
Compared to the Inner Spheres former shipbuilding capacity the Free Worlds Leagues production is pathetic.  As an example, Blue Nose Clipperships of Mars built 400 Sovetskii Soyuz in 24 years.

Also, it hasn't been that short a time. They've been working on rebuilding their warship production capacity/space infrastructure since shortly after the Helm memory core was discovered in 3027.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 10:21:12 AM by Hellfire »