Author Topic: The Weapons Ranges Thread  (Read 8420 times)

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Offline (TLL)Siilk

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Re: The Weapons Ranges Thread
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2010, 02:59:43 PM »
 I'm with you here, Heretic. +1 to every word in your post.



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Offline Brainwright

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Re: The Weapons Ranges Thread
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2010, 04:27:20 PM »
Off Topic: Clan LRMs fired at point blank ranges are part of the design strategy of the Cougar, Mad Dog and Timber Wolf so I really think we miss the soul of these machines if we insist on a 300m minimum range.  I'd like to see Clan LRMs not arcing if locked on target & under 400m, instead I'd like to see a Lock + <400m meaning that the Clan LRMs switch to firing like MRMs (spread out damage instead of an accurate concentrated stream) and I'd like to see an  increase the cost of the Clan LRM by 30-50% to compensate for no minimum range.

LRM lock time reduced slightly (10%) to compensate for the fact that so many weapons can now touch the LRM boats.

EDIT: Forgot RACs!

How about switching Clan LRMs to a two-stage functionality?  They dumbfire out of the launcher, and then, after 300m or a certain distance from the target, they spit warheads at the target in such a manner that while their indirect fire capability is reduced, they're better able to hit moving targets because they can lead the shot by taking advantage of the dumbfire stage.
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Offline Sesambrot

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Re: The Weapons Ranges Thread
« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2010, 06:13:18 PM »
Sry, but the only reason you have for those changes is;
to place the weapons in their intended range brackets relative to each other

Actually a little rangebuff for standard PPCs would be nice, but everything else, especially ACs works fine as is, and ERPPCs are already a match for LRMs IMO...

However, your idea to change CLRMs isn't a bad one, but I'm doubtful what effect it would have in MWLL, it might give Clan LRM mechs a huge advantage over IS ones.
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Offline Cujo

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Re: The Weapons Ranges Thread
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2010, 06:16:11 PM »
it might give Clan LRM mechs a huge advantage over IS ones.
this.

Offline =KoS=Zeus

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Re: The Weapons Ranges Thread
« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2010, 08:30:50 PM »
it might give Clan LRM mechs a huge advantage over IS ones.
this.
+100 to this.

Clan LRMs in CBT are broken. I will list why.
- Clan LRMs weigh 50% of the weight of IS LRMs. All other Clan weapons have a weight disparity of only 16-20% less than their IS counterparts.
- Clan LRMs have no minimum range. This means that at ranges normally reserved for the Heavy Autocannons, a Clan LRM-20 is enjoying better hit rates and is generally scoring higher damage than the close range king of the battlefield, the AC/20.
- Clan LRMs take up very little space. Theoretically a clan mech crammed full of endo steel, ferro-fibrous armor, XL engine, and double heat sinks can still find room to slot in a low heat, high damage, high range, Clan LRM-15 for very little space and weight. Clan mechs treat this like an afterthought weapon, while for the IS it is a primary weapon system.

Now, the only negatives that you regularly see for Clan LRMs in CBT canon designs is that when they are equipped as a secondary weapon system (as they are on the Madcat Prime and Vulture Prime) they carry extremely limited ammunition. Currently in MWLL the mechs are equipped with a Free ton of ammo and that ton of ammo carries double the salvos as in CBT. This means that a Madcat Prime which normally only has 6 salvos for each LRM-20 is now carrying 12, and it costs less weight than in CBT. As a brawler weapon it is now akin to an LB20X with double the range and lock on capability (plus NARC and TAG) but only weighs 5 tons instead of 12 tons.

With direct fire LRMs I would fully expect to see a Madcat Mk II Beat Stick transformed into something like the following: Assuming 44 tons of pod space.
4x CLRM-20s
4x CERMBL
Jump Jets
8 extra tons of ammo
8 extra heat sinks

This gives you a mech that can reach out to 1000m with 80 LRMs, or Brawl with 80 LRMs and 4 CERMBLs, never overheats and has 36 salvos with each missile launcher. The only support it needs is against aircraft. Anything that tries to "run up on" this LRM boat now eats 80 LRMs regardless of the range and 4 CERMBLs. This thing will eat assault mechs for breakfast. (wiki states an LB20X does 20x69 kinetic damage, while a CLRM-20 does 20x93 missile, and 20x93 frag. That's over 6000 damage in a single volley, though a slower rate of fire to be sure.)

If this were ever implemented, the scatter on an LRM salvo would have to be immense or, like in MW4, they would be broken as F*** (Anyone remember the Stormcrow loaded up with CLRMs that you fight in the Solaris matches?)

My personal preference for LRMs would be that all of them can "hot load" and do direct fire (no lock-on), and scatter much more than MRMs do (MRMs are designed to do this, LRMs aren't.) They would function as Artillery by having an "indirect mode" set as a second linked weapon listing below them and would have the Long Tom artillery targeting system overlay on the HUD. Simply angle your shot using the targeter and trigger the correct Weapon Group and the LRMs will be fired in Indirect Mode, thus raining down on the target area (like LRM artillery should work.) Or angle your torso down and trigger the other Weapon Group and the LRMs will fire in Hot Loaded mode and fly straight forward. Triggering either firing mode initiates the reload timer on both versions of the weapon.

Offline xInVicTuSx

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Re: The Weapons Ranges Thread
« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2010, 11:51:34 PM »
How about firing from passive makes CLRM fire straight forward but without the guidance or convergence of MRMs?
Would still be useful.
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Offline KingLeerUK

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Re: The Weapons Ranges Thread
« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2010, 12:47:00 AM »
How about firing from passive makes CLRM fire straight forward but without the guidance or convergence of MRMs?
Would still be useful.

You should probably take SRMs then, because they do exactly that but hit even harder per missile than LRMs do.
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Offline EagleFire

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Re: The Weapons Ranges Thread
« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2010, 12:47:39 AM »
Increasing Clan SRM ranges to 500m would also be broken as hell. Running into a Maddog B is bad enough. If it had a 500m range NO mech in the game would even have a chance in hell of being able to run away before being destroyed.

Also what if we gave Clans ATM launchers? We don't have swappable ammo at the moment so basically we could just give them all Medium range missiles which would give them a range of roughly 850M. Due to their smaller salvos they would have trouble getting past AMS so I would suggest adding some measure to increase their likely hood of getting through. Maybe increase their velocity to give AMS less time to react to them?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 12:55:11 AM by EagleFire »

Offline xInVicTuSx

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Re: The Weapons Ranges Thread
« Reply #38 on: September 03, 2010, 01:01:12 AM »
How about firing from passive makes CLRM fire straight forward but without the guidance or convergence of MRMs?
Would still be useful.

You should probably take SRMs then, because they do exactly that but hit even harder per missile than LRMs do.

If I was in an IS mech i would say yes, but clan LRMs should be filling the role of MRM and LRM, thus i wish they were effective at short ranges too. Yes SRM would be better, as it should be, but I still want to at least use them rather than them arcing up and hitting nothing until 350m. Options and versatility is all, yes SRMs are better, but I still want the OPTION.
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Offline (TLL) Heretic

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Re: The Weapons Ranges Thread
« Reply #39 on: September 03, 2010, 02:24:01 AM »
Increasing Clan SRM ranges to 500m would also be broken as hell. Running into a Maddog B is bad enough. If it had a 500m range NO mech in the game would even have a chance in hell of being able to run away before being destroyed.

Pafffft!  Some weeks ago some guy spent several lives trying to sneak up and kill me in my PPC Nova Cat using a SRM Vulture on Thunder Rift.  Had I been alone I might have had trouble on a couple of the attempts.  Each time my strategy was the same, punch through one of the paper thin side torso sections to kill at least one of the SRM Launchers (you'd be surprised how easy it is to return fire on a SRM Vulture if it looses a side torso with its SRMs), turn around 360 while the weapons reloaded (not taking all of the damage in the face is very effective), finish the Vulture by pumping fire into the hole in it's side whenever you get a chance; this is further helped by getting into a circle fight at 50m from the Vulture where most of his SRMs will miss (but that's just the cherry on top).

The above would be the same at 500m as at 350m, so I don't see your point.  Teamwork makes the SRM Vulture a piñata, but they're far from impossible to defeat 1on1.

Edit:typo
« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 02:30:25 AM by (TLL) Heretic »


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Offline =KoS=Zeus

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Re: The Weapons Ranges Thread
« Reply #40 on: September 03, 2010, 03:01:34 AM »
How about firing from passive makes CLRM fire straight forward but without the guidance or convergence of MRMs?
Would still be useful.

You should probably take SRMs then, because they do exactly that but hit even harder per missile than LRMs do.

Assuming the wiki is correct, SRMs only inflict 3 damage more per missile than LRMs. Their massive increase in damage is in how often they fire. ~3x faster than LRMs. To me this is balanced by the fact that LRMs can fire much earlier in an engagement than SRMs, and suffer less issues from heat because they have more time between salvos to cool off and allow you to defensively twist your mech's torso while waiting for a reload.

As a weapon overall, a mech with 10 tons devoted to LRMs (i.e. 2 CLRM-20s) will probably be more effective than a mech armed with 10 tons of SRMs (i.e. 2 Dual CSRM-6s + 2 Dual CSRM-4s)

However, if the SRM carrying mech can avoid being engaged at maximum range of the LRM carrying one, then the advantage quickly tips in favor of the SRM mech, and the advantage rests solely with the SRM mech if engagement begins within range of the SRMs.

Offline KSerge83

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Re: The Weapons Ranges Thread
« Reply #41 on: September 03, 2010, 08:06:13 AM »
I think this thread might be slightly off course due to the debate around making the prime mechs more relevant in the current game.

The only thing I'll say in that regard is that when the new game modes become a factor, and get more play time, the prime variants will start to shine. They were all built to be a lot better balanced overall than the "boats" and lend very well to strategic situations where you can't just "die and respawn" for more C-bills. I'm willing to bed that when a game mode comes about that is basically a round-based, one mech/tank per pilot skirmish, the primes will see a lot more of the spotlight, as they are pretty decent at just about all ranges. Whereas the currently popular solaris arena play results in players picking various boats and hoping they work, you tend to be a bit more careful with mech choice when it's the only mech you're going to get.

That said, I feel that a lot of the ranges in MWLL are spot-on. If anything, the 1200+ range weapons cover so much of the map that you sometimes can't leave your base without being in firing range. If you ask me, the only weapon where this should be the case is the LT. Obviously, restrictions in gamer hardware and game engine operation will mean that humungadunga maps that balance to such long ranges won't be common. I don't mind this at all, but if we're talking about adjusting ranges, let's keep in mind the current state of the game, the currently available maps, and the potential changes on the way already.
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Offline (TLL)Siilk

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Re: The Weapons Ranges Thread
« Reply #42 on: September 03, 2010, 09:16:16 AM »
it might give Clan LRM mechs a huge advantage over IS ones.
this.
+100 to this.

Clan LRMs in CBT are broken. I will list why.
- Clan LRMs weigh 50% of the weight of IS LRMs. All other Clan weapons have a weight disparity of only 16-20% less than their IS counterparts.
- Clan LRMs have no minimum range. This means that at ranges normally reserved for the Heavy Autocannons, a Clan LRM-20 is enjoying better hit rates and is generally scoring higher damage than the close range king of the battlefield, the AC/20.
- Clan LRMs take up very little space. Theoretically a clan mech crammed full of endo steel, ferro-fibrous armor, XL engine, and double heat sinks can still find room to slot in a low heat, high damage, high range, Clan LRM-15 for very little space and weight. Clan mechs treat this like an afterthought weapon, while for the IS it is a primary weapon system.

 Broken? Then fix it in for MWLL! Make it weight the same and take the same space. Make clan LRM have half as much the ammo per ton as IS LRMs have. Hell, make CLRM have shoprter lock-on distance! But let them have no minimal range, MRM-style, or like Brainwright suggested:

How about switching Clan LRMs to a two-stage functionality?  They dumbfire out of the launcher, and then, after 300m or a certain distance from the target, they spit warheads at the target in such a manner that while their indirect fire capability is reduced, they're better able to hit moving targets because they can lead the shot by taking advantage of the dumbfire stage.

 With that we'll have two distinct weapons for IS and Clan, former, with lowered cost and double ammo supply per ton, is better for fire support/indirect fire, the latter, with close combat capabilities, would be more useful for hunter/killer or dueling purposes. Such distinction seems very logical to me as it perfectly reflects warfare doctrine of both sides.

 My primary concern in this matter is that many clan Prime variants, like Cougar Prime, Mad dog Prime or Timberwolf Prime, are built around the concept of CLRMs being useful in close combat. It's a a shame to have such glorious mechs being reduced to be almost useless in MWLL.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 09:23:04 AM by (TLL)Siilk »



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Offline Brainwright

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Re: The Weapons Ranges Thread
« Reply #43 on: September 07, 2010, 02:44:42 AM »

You should probably take SRMs then, because they do exactly that but hit even harder per missile than LRMs do.

That's a ridiculous notion.  You can't swap out LRMs for SRMs.

You don't even have a version of the Vulture prime with SRMs instead of LRMs.  The issue at hand is that certain assets aren't used because of weapon limitations.

And don't get me started on the Vulture loaded up with streaks.  Don't.
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Offline Leeko

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Re: The Weapons Ranges Thread
« Reply #44 on: September 07, 2010, 05:25:37 AM »
Maybe if IS mechs weren't stuck in 3025 and got DHS it might balance out with all-range CLRMs.

I'm grasping at straws here, but really, fapp single heatsinks.
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