Author Topic: Some notes on B-tech Weapons capabilitys (and Armor protection)  (Read 26086 times)

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Offline Nebfer

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Re: Some notes on B-tech Weapons capabilitys (and Armor protection)
« Reply #90 on: June 14, 2011, 10:21:09 PM »
100 assault mechs couldent stand against a million man army armed with 1 missile each. You fire hundreds of SRM's/LRMs in combat and all it takes is a shoulder fired launch tube for a solider to wield one of those hundreds. You dont need to pay the PDF literally pay them with nationality--their keeping war off their planet and all they gotta do is run some drills every now and then along with a good dose of propaganda to make them fearless of battlemechs. You wouldent be engaging them in the open field you'll most likely be defending key installations with fortifications and trenches and when you did finally engage them they would find their powerful weapons designed for armor useless against thousands of men firing missiles from their shoulders. 1000 troops firing a single LRM from their shoulder is equivalent to 50 LRM20 barrages, change that to SRMs/MRMs and thats even more damage.
The problem is a million man army is not going to happen in B-tech, thoughs armys are all in it's past, and even if their was your not going to have a million men facing a regiment of mechs at one time.

Though I would just send 132 Firestarter omnimechs after your army...

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You could argue air power but remember the army is simply so goddamn large your not going to get a fixed target and even when you do you could mass cheap AA into beyond deadly barrages as aeros arent exactly designed for stealth. In great numbers price isent even an issue. You no longer need to worry about bringing back all your soliders, missiles are made in batches of hundreds so its a simple matter to mass equip your soldiers with them for anti armor work and cheap light vehicles could mount larger weapons. Your going to need transport for all those troops anyhow so every APC mounts some form of AA/larger weapons and bam your massed infantry army now has AA cover that is easy to replace compared to a fusion powered aircraft which costs absurd amounts to even maintain much less replace.
Why would I need a target? All I would need to do is drop cluster bombs form high altitude. A Squadron of Eagles ASFs can drop 90 tons of cluster bombs (or inferno bombs).

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If chairman Mao was in the BT universe he would already be the leader of the glorious party of the star league.

He was in the B-tech universe but he's long dead now.

Offline Nebfer

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Re: Some notes on B-tech Weapons capabilitys (and Armor protection)
« Reply #91 on: June 17, 2011, 06:47:31 AM »
Time line of the early B-tech years

1914: WW1 starts
1918: WW1 ends
1942: battle of the coral sea takes place
1945: WW2 ends, cold war starts
1950: the Korean war stars
1053: the Korean war ends two Korea's are formed.
1961: Yuri Gagarin is first man in space
1963: The USA expands it's presence in Vietnam
1969: Neil Armstrong lands on the moon
1985: USA roles out a orbital defense satellite
1988: USA roles out a new space plane (Liberty Class)
1988: January: Mikhail Gorbachev becomes premier of the USSR, and the colaps of the soviet union, end of the first cold war
1990s: global depression and military draw down
1994: Crippen station begins construction
1997: Second cold war begins when hardline Communists retake control of the Russian government, military rearmament
2004: Oleg Tikonov becomes the leader of Russia
2005: second cold war ends
2005: Crippen station launched/finished (capable of holding 2,000, and having factory complexes, and houses anti-missile systems)
2007: Crippen upgraded (with orbital shipyards)
2011: January Oleg Tikonov killed, starting the second soviet civil war
2014: January NATO intervenes liberating Poland & Czechoslovakia. Then moves against the soviets, who panic and launch ICBMs all of which are shot down by the orbital defense system
2014: the second soviet civil war ends (15 million dead)
2014: Germany is reunited
2014: the Western alliance is formed
2016: Alliance Space Command formed
2016: a permanent maned presence on the moon is placed by the end of the year
2017: The AS Altair is launched in July for a two year mission to Mars, AS Procyon is launched a month latter
2018: AS Columbia launched
2018: Kearny & Fuchida publish their papers
2020: GM develops the first Fusion plant that sustains power generation
2021: GM begins constriction of fusion plants (and yes that GM)
2022: Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere formed, Korea is reunited at around this time as well.
2023: The WA stares down the ACPS over Japan, a brife war starts between japan and the ACPS when the USS Bremerton a Sea Wolf Class Fission sub (yes that Sea wolf) was sunk by ACPS ships and the JDF Destroyer Akagi badly damaged (in the atempt to save the Bremerton's crew)
2024: The Osaka agreement allows Asian nations to join the Western Alliance
2026: The first fusion rocket went online
2026: AIDS is eradicated as is Malaria and other diseases
2027: The AS Columbia is modified and launched to be the first fusion powered space craft, capable of reaching Mars in 14 days (vs ~6 months -this is a sustained .1G by the way)
2029: fusion power becomes an increasingly common power source.
2029: the Magellan probes are first launched
2030+: 9 Metis is colonized (asteroid belt) asteroid mining is common at this time.
~2050: Mars and Venus start being terraformed (150 years later...)
2070: improvements allow regular hydrogen to be used in fusion reactors
2086: 80% of the worlds population (of 9 billion) was part of the Western alliance
2086: the Western Alliance becomes the Terran Alliance
2098: the average life span is over 100 years world wide for Alliance citizens
2098: A Massive riot brakes out in Brazil, the TAAF sends in two divisions to deal with it after the Brazilian government fails to deal with it. (a problem the TA will have to deal with for the rest of it's life)
2102: Kearny's & Fuchida's writings are verified by two different groups
2102: the TA launches the Deimos Project to develop these findings
2107 the First hyperspace jump is performed, became known as the KF drive.
2108 the first manned hyperspace jump is done.
2108: December Michelle Land becomes the first human to set foot on another world (a woman by the way from Canada) on Tau Ceti IV (aka New Earth)
2112: the first colony is set up out side of the earth solar system on Tau Ceti IV.
2120: The Terran Space navy is created
2122: The TAS Charger is launched, the first warship
2168: The first Grand survey is established
2174:  the survey is completed with 108 worlds colonized at that time in an 80 light year radius
2177: the Ryan Iceship Cartel is created
2182: Elias Jung Liao begins his cleansing (terrorist) operations, that kills at lest 149 VIPs including 26 heads of state
2188: Elias Liao leaves earth never to return, and his operations end at that point
2189: the World Laio is colonized
2213: New Avalon is colonized
2235: fourth grand survey, 600 worlds in a 120 light year radius
2235: Tamar pack formed
2236: Outer Reaches Rebellion begins
2237: The Grain rebellion begins on new Avalon
2237: Outer Reaches Rebellion ends
2238: The Republic of Marik is formed
2238: Earth Alliance begins to pull out of the colony's
2253: Taurian Concordat formed
2271: formation of the free worlds league
2296: Shiro Kurita named First Citizen of Galedon
2299: Federation of Skye formed
2300: TAS Dreadnought is launched (first true warship)
2302: Alliance of Galedon formed
2315: Terran Hegemony formed
2317: Crucis Pact signed, formation of the Federated suns
2319: Draconis Combine founded
2341: Lyran Commonwealth formed
2366: Capellan Confederation formed
2398: Age of War begins
2439: The Terran Hegemony introduces the battlemech
2449: first combat deployment of the battlemech
2455: The Lyrans steal battlemech plans from Hesperus II
2457: House Davion Buys the plans from the Lyrans
2459: The Lyrans first deployment of battlemechs, crushing a Marik Armor regiment and supporting elements with a single company
2461: The Draconis Combine gains BattleMech technology
2462: The Free Worlds league gains BattleMech technology
2462: the Capellan Confederation gains the plans from a Marik agent
2475: First battlemech vs battlemech action takes place on the Lyran world of Nox (vs the Draconis Combine who lose)
2496: The first dropships enter service
2571: Star League Accords signed, Star League formed

Offline Brainwright

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Re: Some notes on B-tech Weapons capabilitys (and Armor protection)
« Reply #92 on: August 27, 2011, 09:09:30 AM »
Ya know, I've been thinking about Battletech armor penetration, and I have to wonder if it's not a matter of raw firepower.  Most modern armor-piercing technologies use kinetic energy penetrators, that is metal is accelerated to such speed and force that the armor and the projectile act as a liquid rather than a solid.

Could the ceramic backing behind standard armor be the magic bullet that one-ups modern ballistics science?  I can't really say for certain.

Oh, and I found this article on Chobham armor that pretty much confirms the above.  Keep in mind, kiddies, there hasn't been a serious war in years, so this stuff has never undergone a serious battlefield test.  It could very well be what inspired Battletech armor.
Thanks for the view.

Offline Nebfer

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Re: Some notes on B-tech Weapons capabilitys (and Armor protection)
« Reply #93 on: August 29, 2011, 06:16:01 AM »
Well one thing to note is B-tech armor is very thin on a mech, your not likely going to see an armor thickness of more than an inch (25mm). And this armor is stopping cold Gauss shells that would make current day MBTs a lot of scrap metal. For B-tech armor it seems less on how good your penitrator round is but more on raw energy transfer.

Though chobam armor is likely an inspiration of B-techs Steal and ceramic armor layering.

Offline Taemien

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Re: Some notes on B-tech Weapons capabilitys (and Armor protection)
« Reply #94 on: August 29, 2011, 09:02:06 AM »
Remember that sheets of armor in BattleTech are meant to shavemelt off. They aren't stopping a round rather then grabbing it and shoving it away from the internals.

Modern Armor wouldn't work on a BattleMech, even if it stopped (and it probably very well could) a round the energy transfer would damage the fragile internals. Where as the armor on a battlemech would simply break off, carrying the energy transfer away from the location hit. This is why you still see critical hits on locations even when the armor isn't penetrated.

And if you've ever played CBT, you'd know most of the shots fired miss. Mechs move and move often, and everywhere. That is why they are king of the battlefield. You're not trying to hit a tank moving in one direction, you're trying to hit a mech that can and is moving all over the place. A stationary mech is a dead mech.

Offline Brainwright

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Re: Some notes on B-tech Weapons capabilitys (and Armor protection)
« Reply #95 on: September 01, 2011, 10:42:58 PM »
And this armor is stopping cold Gauss shells that would make current day MBTs a lot of scrap metal. For B-tech armor it seems less on how good your penitrator round is but more on raw energy transfer.

Though chobam armor is likely an inspiration of B-techs Steal and ceramic armor layering.

The thing about sending a bit of metal at supersonic speeds is that it doesn't act like a solid lump when it reaches the target.  The heat and the forces involved make it act like a liquid, and even a gauss round would act almost exactly like a modern kinetic penetrator.

Remember that sheets of armor in BattleTech are meant to shavemelt off. They aren't stopping a round rather then grabbing it and shoving it away from the internals.

Modern Armor wouldn't work on a BattleMech, even if it stopped (and it probably very well could) a round the energy transfer would damage the fragile internals. Where as the armor on a battlemech would simply break off, carrying the energy transfer away from the location hit. This is why you still see critical hits on locations even when the armor isn't penetrated.

The metal is supposed to melt off in the case of energy weapons.  In the case of solid projectiles, it's supposed to fragment incoming attacks and the ceramic layer further disperses the fragments to protect internals (this is a fairly close interpretation of the descriptions listed here.).  This naturally breaks up the ceramic layer, making it seem like it sheds off the armor under impacts (a very likely inference).  It doesn't fall off, it just loses its ability to stop solid projectiles, becoming like tin can without support.  The projectile may get through with any given hit, the armor just disperses the energy so evenly that it's a non-event.

The case where the armor fails to properly disperse an incoming attack is why we have through-armor criticals.

Another thing that makes battlemechs more resistant to modern weapons is the lack of internals for any given space.  This may seem incongruous, but it's the primary difference between combat vehicles and battlemechs in the rules.  Vehicles contain all their internals plus crew in one or two spaces, where battlemechs have internals over various spaces, making their operating systems far less dense, and therefore far less vulnerable to penetrating rounds.

Well one thing to note is B-tech armor is very thin on a mech, your not likely going to see an armor thickness of more than an inch (25mm).

Comparing chobham armor to Battletech armor isn't very fair, but for people looking for a good understanding, it brings it down from the realm of magic materials, to the vaguely theoretical.  Just a matter of building the proper materials to shrink it down, right?

Technically, you could probably make better armor like this (not fair to call it simply composite) with more expensive ceramics.  What we see on modern tanks is just the mass-marketed version.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2011, 11:02:25 PM by Brainwright »
Thanks for the view.

Offline Nebfer

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Re: Some notes on B-tech Weapons capabilitys (and Armor protection)
« Reply #96 on: September 02, 2011, 06:58:11 AM »
And this armor is stopping cold Gauss shells that would make current day MBTs a lot of scrap metal. For B-tech armor it seems less on how good your penitrator round is but more on raw energy transfer.

Though chobam armor is likely an inspiration of B-techs Steal and ceramic armor layering.

The thing about sending a bit of metal at supersonic speeds is that it doesn't act like a solid lump when it reaches the target.  The heat and the forces involved make it act like a liquid, and even a gauss round would act almost exactly like a modern kinetic penetrator.

Remember that sheets of armor in BattleTech are meant to shavemelt off. They aren't stopping a round rather then grabbing it and shoving it away from the internals.

Modern Armor wouldn't work on a BattleMech, even if it stopped (and it probably very well could) a round the energy transfer would damage the fragile internals. Where as the armor on a battlemech would simply break off, carrying the energy transfer away from the location hit. This is why you still see critical hits on locations even when the armor isn't penetrated.

The metal is supposed to melt off in the case of energy weapons.  In the case of solid projectiles, it's supposed to fragment incoming attacks and the ceramic layer further disperses the fragments to protect internals (this is a fairly close interpretation of the descriptions listed here.).  This naturally breaks up the ceramic layer, making it seem like it sheds off the armor under impacts (a very likely inference).  It doesn't fall off, it just loses its ability to stop solid projectiles, becoming like tin can without support.  The projectile may get through with any given hit, the armor just disperses the energy so evenly that it's a non-event.

The case where the armor fails to properly disperse an incoming attack is why we have through-armor criticals.

Another thing that makes battlemechs more resistant to modern weapons is the lack of internals for any given space.  This may seem incongruous, but it's the primary difference between combat vehicles and battlemechs in the rules.  Vehicles contain all their internals plus crew in one or two spaces, where battlemechs have internals over various spaces, making their operating systems far less dense, and therefore far less vulnerable to penetrating rounds.

Well one thing to note is B-tech armor is very thin on a mech, your not likely going to see an armor thickness of more than an inch (25mm).

Comparing chobham armor to Battletech armor isn't very fair, but for people looking for a good understanding, it brings it down from the realm of magic materials, to the vaguely theoretical.  Just a matter of building the proper materials to shrink it down, right?

Technically, you could probably make better armor like this (not fair to call it simply composite) with more expensive ceramics.  What we see on modern tanks is just the mass-marketed version.

That link you provided is largely paraphrased from Tech manual, which is where much of that posts info comes from.

B-tech armor is comprised of a Steel layer and then a CBN layer, the steel layer is supposed to fragment the impact and the CBN is to absorb it.

Offline Brainwright

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Re: Some notes on B-tech Weapons capabilitys (and Armor protection)
« Reply #97 on: September 02, 2011, 11:22:32 PM »
That link you provided is largely paraphrased from Tech manual, which is where much of that posts info comes from.

B-tech armor is comprised of a Steel layer and then a CBN layer, the steel layer is supposed to fragment the impact and the CBN is to absorb it.
Which is what I just said it did.

The actual reality of, "absorb," is open to interpretation.  Almost any significant impact has a good chance of shattering the ceramic layer, but even in a shattered state, the ceramic layer stands a good chance of shredding a projectile, with decreasing effectiveness as the ceramic is more broken.  It's just how a ceramic layer works.

According to rules regarding underwater damage in the Total War manual, any attack has a chance of breaching the armor, so absorb does not necessarily mean, "stop entirely."  It is only the self-sealing nature of the armor that keeps it air tight in combat.
Thanks for the view.

Offline Come and See

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Re: Some notes on B-tech Weapons capabilitys (and Armor protection)
« Reply #98 on: September 16, 2011, 04:15:08 PM »
Akimbo Ultra 203mm AC-20. Ouch.

Offline Nebfer

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Re: Some notes on B-tech Weapons capabilitys (and Armor protection)
« Reply #99 on: October 16, 2011, 09:57:30 PM »
Akimbo Ultra 203mm AC-20. Ouch.

Actually that's not possible under the rules you would need at lest 30 tons to pull that off, but no current mech can carry (in it's hands) that much even with TSM. A 100 ton mech with TSM can Akimbo Ultra AC-5s (which do have canonical calibers of up to 120mm, though 50 or 80mm is more common). Though technically one actually can not Akimbo as you need both hands to use a external arm mounted weapons system (i.e. think Rifles not pistols).

This points out an interesting fact, battlemechs for all their sophistication have a low "muscle & bone" mass to over all weight fraction. For example a Human is comprised of roughly 15% by weight for their skeleton and roughly 40% for muscles (for a typical human, who is not over weight), a battlemech has between 5 and 20% for internals (reinforced), with no official numbers of the mass of a battlemechs myomers (it's not even really known if myomers are part of the skeleton or perhaps part of the engine mass or something else). What ever the number is it's not likely anywhere where close to 40%. Though one thing we do know is a battlemechs lifting capacity (10% of the mass of the lifting unit, unless it has TSM then it's 20%)* can be some what misleading, after all a 100 ton mech can lift 10 tons with it's arms, but said mech can easily be carrying 20 tons in each arm of weapons...


* Interesting with lift hoists it can easily carry it's own weight in cargo.

Offline Taemien

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Re: Some notes on B-tech Weapons capabilitys (and Armor protection)
« Reply #100 on: October 21, 2011, 08:01:37 AM »
Akimbo Ultra 203mm AC-20. Ouch.

Actually that's not possible under the rules you would need at lest 30 tons to pull that off, but no current mech can carry (in it's hands) that much even with TSM. A 100 ton mech with TSM can Akimbo Ultra AC-5s (which do have canonical calibers of up to 120mm, though 50 or 80mm is more common). Though technically one actually can not Akimbo as you need both hands to use a external arm mounted weapons system (i.e. think Rifles not pistols).

This points out an interesting fact, battlemechs for all their sophistication have a low "muscle & bone" mass to over all weight fraction. For example a Human is comprised of roughly 15% by weight for their skeleton and roughly 40% for muscles (for a typical human, who is not over weight), a battlemech has between 5 and 20% for internals (reinforced), with no official numbers of the mass of a battlemechs myomers (it's not even really known if myomers are part of the skeleton or perhaps part of the engine mass or something else). What ever the number is it's not likely anywhere where close to 40%. Though one thing we do know is a battlemechs lifting capacity (10% of the mass of the lifting unit, unless it has TSM then it's 20%)* can be some what misleading, after all a 100 ton mech can lift 10 tons with it's arms, but said mech can easily be carrying 20 tons in each arm of weapons...


* Interesting with lift hoists it can easily carry it's own weight in cargo.

A BattleMech can lift and carry 10 tons and move at normal walking speed. An average human weighing 200 pounds can lift and carry 20 pounds without issue. Though 40lbs would start slowing them down. I think there is advanced rules that allow mechs to carry more then 10% but with MP penalties as well as enemies gaining bonuses to hit. I'd have to look it up though.

So I wouldn't quite say Mechs have poor lifting capabilities.

Offline Nebfer

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Re: Some notes on B-tech Weapons capabilitys (and Armor protection)
« Reply #101 on: October 23, 2011, 03:27:29 AM »
A BattleMech can lift and carry 10 tons and move at normal walking speed. An average human weighing 200 pounds can lift and carry 20 pounds without issue. Though 40lbs would start slowing them down. I think there is advanced rules that allow mechs to carry more then 10% but with MP penalties as well as enemies gaining bonuses to hit. I'd have to look it up though.

So I wouldn't quite say Mechs have poor lifting capabilities.

I am not aware of any rules that allow a battlemech to carry more than the 10/20% out side of the use a lift hoist.

Vehicles can carry more at a speed reduction, up to their weight for ~half their MP.